Upon this Rock
A debate over the separation of church and state got cranked up a notch this week as Canada’s public safety minister suggested a Winnipeg MP would rather have kids join gangs than participate in programs run by a religious group.Public Safety Minister Vic Toews scolded NDP MP Pat Martin, who a day earlier said no taxpayer money should be given to a Christian group that’s trying to build a youth centre in Winnipeg, calling the proposal “taxpayer-funded proselytization.” The federal government and Winnipeg’s city council are poised to help the non-profit group Youth For Christ build an $11.7-million, 50,000-square-foot youth centre.
Ottawa will contribute $3.2-million if city council votes in favour of a $3.4-million contribution of its own toward the project, which will include a gym, a skate park, a job training centre and other facilities.
“I have no objection to faith-based organizations providing services. Sally Ann (the Salvation Army) and others have been doing a great job for years. But these people are evangelical fundamentalists,” Martin said of Youth For Christ. “Offering much-needed sports opportunities is just their way of luring in young prospects.” He went on to quip: “Would the federal government be so willing to give them $3 million if they were called Youth for Allah?” On Thursday, senior Manitoba MP Vic Toews, who holds the public safety portfolio in the cabinet, suggested Martin has his priorities mixed up.
“It appears to me Pat Martin doesn’t have a problem with allowing gangs to recruit in his riding, but when it comes to Youth For Christ offering programs, he suddenly has a problem with it,” Toews said. winnipeg free press via Dawg
No doubt Youth for Christ does fine work. It is, however, a religious organization which should not be funded by the state. If freedom of religion means anything it surely means that I do not have to fund religion with which I disagree.
Vic Toews, who is in the ongoing Imbecile Race in the CPC Cabinet with Justice Minister Rob Nicholson, seems to think YFC and street gangs somehow operate in the same way. Street gangs are not “allowed” to recruit. They just do. However, funding YFC basically pays an evangelical outfit to rope in kids.
Another reason to find an alternative to the CPC.
February 21st, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Yikes! For Whom does the taxman call? He calls for you, to the tune of $6.6M
If the two levels of Government (where’s the Provincial Gov’t in all this?) are shelling out that kind of lolly, what do they need YFC for? Sounds like a scam from here. The city builds it, they get to decide what programs are offered. YFC ‘builds’ it, with taxpayers’ money, they get to run the programs. What’s wrong with this picture.
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:43 am
There’s a difference between funding an organization (as in operating funds) and giving an organization a one time grant for a capital project. I think they should get the money, or at least their project should be considered for it. They are not a church. They are a charity that works with troubled youth and which draws upon Christian traditions for its guiding principles. You and Pat Martin make it sound like their sole objective in working with kids is proselytization. It isn’t and they enjoy widespread support from other community and social service organizations. At least that’s beea long time ago. Take a look at what they do and measure how successful they are at doing it. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is stupid.
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:50 am
There is no Canadian version of the infamous ‘separation of church and state’. That is fiction. In our unwritten constitution is a prohibition for the government (state) to impose a religion on the people it serves. Entering into an agreement with an organization to provide services, or supporting an organization providing services is not imposing anything on anyone.
The freedom of religion applies equally to our elected representatives as it does to those represented. The idea that our legislators and government have to be scrupulously secular is nonsense. The idea that our government cannot fund a non-government organization of any kind is also nonsense. The fact is that our government cannot discriminate against an organization based on religion or belief.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:30 am
Shouldn’t we be more focused on results – the ‘results’ for existing programs run by government social workers and/or aboriginal groups are pitiful, not only in Winnipeg but in most communities. So if YFC can provide an effective service that reduces aboriginal youth violence – I will be more than pleased to give them my tax money.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:45 am
This is ridiculous. Look, the State needs to run defense, the judicial/penal system and (maybe) the infrastructure. Not this group or any other damn group. The “render unto Ceasar” jokes write themselves. Of course, the YfC folks will say, “But if all these radical anti-christian groups can get decades of funding,” etc. Which goes to show how removed they are from real Christianity; since when is “but he did it, too” a “Christian” reason for anything?
PS: churches need to lose their tax exempt status too. That’ll get their minds right. They’re just part of the Establishment now and have been for over 100 years.
February 22nd, 2010 at 5:51 am
but youths for christ are OUR people….youths for allah are not OUR kind of people…not only culturally but in their world view…and of course their character and moral fibre…OUR God is a loving God…THEIR god is a sociopath..
OUR youths would be helping old ladies cross the street and providing meals on wheels…THEIR youths would be scheming on how to rip off the state make bombs and just generally bugger the canadian people…
anyone in doubt about this is in denial…
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:25 am
But yes: dawg chooses not to understand what “separation of church and state” really means.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:07 am
...? That’s kind of losing sight of the money, John.
Louise defines the issue by whether OUR money is being spent on Capital expense or Operating expense. Kathy’s closer to my point, why is the gov’t(s) involved in building religion based infrastructure? For anyone?
Now, if they were talking about a grant to support local developers, in hard times, I’d have the same response.
If the LOCAL government offered to match YFC money, dollar for dollar, I’d have less of a complaint.
To be absolutely fair, I’d have to point out that the Religion based private schools in Vancouver have been stellar in turning out a superior product, scholastically speaking.
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:36 am
DaninVan,
I was thinking the same thing.
In the absence of other plausible organizations, and obviously, Winnipeg is in dire need to do something, anything, to help stop the downward social spiral in their community, is the alternative to deny YfC funding just to meet a perceived moral high ground?
And let’s not forget where the basis for our morals came from in Canada, from the very people whose ideas were formed by Christian influenced morality.
Until a better idea steps up to the plate, what’s the worst that could happen?
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:00 am
Now Kaffir Kanuck, you aren’t seriously suggesting, a la Bill Clinton, that “midnight basketball” games at the downtown community center are the key to stopping that “downward social spiral”?
We have a ton of community centers here in Toronto. And lots of crime. At some of these community centers, kids are encouraged to… play basketball and write rap songs. That’s been working out JUST great, let me tell you.
I’d much rather see Youth for Christ use that real estate that Youth for Allah, believe me. But we all have to build this crap WITH OUR OWN MONEY. At the risk of repeating myself: doing the “right thing” using the wrong methods isn’t Christian, it is Machievellian.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:07 am
Kaffir_Kanuck, noticing that there is a need for “something” to stop the downward social spiral does not really improve the case for financing buildings which will later be owned by a religious organization. The rapid decline of Winnipeg has more to do with its economic decline and the influx of native people into an essentially jobless inner city.
Rather than creating all manner of things to do during apparently unlimited leisure time, it might be smarter to spend this sort of money encouraging companies to create jobs and to under take serious job training initiatives.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:19 am
DaninVan: “I’d have to point out that the Religion based private schools in Vancouver have been stellar in turning out a superior product, scholastically speaking.”
That’s my point. It doesn’t matter whether the organization has a religious angle, it’s the results on record that count.
And I see I managed to mangle my previous comment. What I was trying to say, is that many years ago I was involved in a committee that was attempting to improve race relations in Saskatoon, and another member of the committee, who was an aboriginal person, worked for Youth For Christ. I was very impressed with what he brought to the table. Whether or not he was a practicing Christian, I have no idea. I don’t know whether he was just a YFC employee, but he certainly didn’t say anything remotely resembling what you might expect from an organization bent proselytising and winning converts.
If you want a comparison, think instead of the YMCA or YWCA. You don’t see much proselytizing going on in those buildings, but you do see a lot of good services that make the community a better place, including services that are aimed at “disadvantaged” youth.
And DaninVan is also right about the Christian basis of Western Civilization. Whether we like it or not, and regardless of whether or not it’s currently fashionable, it is impossible to separate Western values from our Judeo-Christian roots. Even atheists reflect that in their rants, although they might not want to admit it. They do, after all, engage in a pursuit of truth, are by and large honest about what they perceive the truth to be, and are staunch defenders of using the gifts of our minds. The only place where they may differ is how we may have acquired those gifts.
If we want to eliminate the tax exemption status of church property, fine with me. If we want to leave more money in the tax payers pocket, also fine with me. Bring it on, in fact. But as long as there is government largess using our tax dollars, don’t eliminate an organization from competition simply because it mentions the word Christ or Christian in its title.
The organization’s purpose, its level of public support and track record should be all that counts.
(Jay, any chance that you could get a “preview” button for us stubby fingered commenters?)
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:07 pm
Louise, I have no doubt that religiously based organizations can produce outstanding results. The Sally Anne comes to mind.
For me this is really a question of the limits of the state. I don’t want to see the state funding buildings which will ultimately be owned by religious organizations.
(No preview button yet I am afraid.)
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Kathy and Jay,
I was just suggesting it seems the lesser evil (if they’re going to waste our tax dollars anyway).
Yes Jay, encouraging job creation is good, but it wouldn’t benefit the youth not of legal age to work. And then there’s the generational issue of actually getting the youth, who are of age, to work in the first place, instead of deciding they’re just not going to show up to work and live in their parent’s basement for the rest of their lives.
Again, I don’t have an issue with your positions, but I also don’t hear any alternatives.
And Kathy, you always make me laugh (in a good way). We all know how short-bus special Toronto is. I won’t even ask for anyone to consider alternatives for the GTA’s hip-hop hatching hostels.
From my own experiences, and the countless stories from the people in and out of my trade who’ve had to work there, if I ever got posted to CFB Winnipeg, I’d quit. I’d rather suffer a posting to Happy Valley, Goose Bay.
(or, if I didn’t have to work for a living, and I had only two choices to pick from, I’d pick TO over Winnipeg.)
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Thanks for your courteous response, K-K. However I have to reject your premise: “they’re going to waste our tax dollars anyway”
Why? Why do we ALLOW this? “I reject your reality and substitute my own!” :-)
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:39 pm
“And DaninVan is also right about the Christian basis of Western Civilization.”
-Louise
I said that?! Man, my memory’s going faster than I thought…;) (not that I disagree)
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:56 pm
okay…you’re righter….all the money should come from voluntary contributions…and NO exceptions to this rule…
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Kathy,
Having lost the billions the Government of Canada raped from my CF and the RCMP superannuation fund (pension) through bill C-78 in ’98, which would have easily paid for the pension changes proposed by MP Pete Stoffer in Bill C-201, which I talk about briefly here: http://mooseandsquirrel.ca/2010/02/10/07:00/dispatch-4-3-why-we-need-the-left/ , I know from personal experience that change is very difficult to achieve in our Confederation. And we even have selfless sacrifice working for us, and it ain’t enough.
We have to pick and choose our battles. Some are more important to win than others. I don’t think it is a matter of allowing it to happen. Even with a massive movement hell bent to keep this single issue from occurring, there would be no guarantee the waste isn’t going to happen. Remember, this is still a government which as of the 30th of Jan still pledges to reduce green house gasses. Prentice is still going on about carbon emitters. Some issues seem to have their own momentum until the political grade changes to an uphill battle they’re no longer willing to push their issue up.
Sometimes it is best to bend with the wind until it favourably changes direction. That’s why I’m investing most of my emotional mojo on the anti-HRC wagon. Fighting Jihad gets the rest.
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:43 pm
While I would love to see governments limit their spending and take only the minimal of taxes from me to fund things that governments absolutely must do – it ain’t going to happen because there are far too many people who want their own favoured whatever funded. So, as in my previous post, if government is going to give away money, then I want to see results! Government run anything is not producing results (at a cost that I’m prepared to pay for – yes they get results, eventually and at great cost and usually with great amounts of money spent on salaries for high paid bureaucrats and union members while a community group, including faith based groups, could get many more results for about a third of the price).
February 22nd, 2010 at 2:41 pm
We’ve already built clubs for troubled youths – they’re called jails. Sweep the streets clean and lock the misbehaving little arses up.
February 22nd, 2010 at 6:57 pm
You want Gov’t initiatives gone wrong? How about this…
http://girlontheright.com/2009/01/23/what-a-waste/
February 22nd, 2010 at 6:59 pm
Noooooo! Wrong link
Ignore that previous one.
Here’s the correct one (am I embarrassed)
http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2010/02/our-national-experiment-in-extermination.html
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:27 am
The part I don’t get is why Pat Martin, Dawg etc are up in arms about this? Isn’t building “community centres” and trying to “engage” youths suposed to be the great Kumbaya leftist solution to crime? While the vast, heartless right wing hordes pine for the chance to lock the deliquents up and throw away the key?
I certainly share the distaste for spending public money on recreational facilities. What I don’t get is the lefties being upset about it. I supose its simply the world Christ being appended to the building. Perhaps they can all reach a compromise and name the building “Youth for Christ and Marx” that ought to get Pat Martin and Dawg on board.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:47 am
The “results” argument reminds me of nothing so much as Mussolini being praised for getting the trains to run on time. Silly.
As for Dawg’s sudden worry about religious encroachment in the political sphere, notice how he never seemed to worry when religious groups on government dole were pumping out “anti-Zionist” messages (Kairos, etc.), only when they began demonstrating their support of his particular bête noire… a certain country in the Middle East beginning with the letter “I” (no, not Iraq or Iran!).
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:05 am
The bottom line is that this is just another example of an outside group trying to take the responsibility of the parents for providing effective outlets for kids. If parents want these outlets, let the community take up funds for such a building. If a church wants to provide it, let them take up funding.
But for a church to approach a government on a non-platform related matter for this level of funding smacks of paternalism.
I also know that not all parents are good parents, but how will that ever change when we are continually relieving them of that obligation? It does NOT take a village to raise a child. It takes parents to raise a child. It takes citizens to raise a village.
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:03 pm
HAL 500…
it’s amazing isn’t it…you’d almost think the poodledoc had a hidden agenda!
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Chris:
I have no problem at all with municipalities building and operating recreational structures. Youth centres are a Good Thing.
NGOs on the ground outside Canada are best positioned to work with the local populations. Here in Canada, government relies heavily upon the volunteer sector, but it’s rare, at least in my experience, to provide more than a few tiny operating grants for the services the domestic NGOs provide.
Turning over a large chunk of municipal infrastructure to an evangelical group? New one on me, although I’m prepared to stand corrected. If the city needs a youth centre, as it probably does, then the city should build it and operate it, not fund it and hand it over to a religious outfit.
February 23rd, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Salvation Army not”evangelical” or “fundematalist”?
Probably invented the combination.
I think that a lot of people should be reading some Canadian History on the relationship between the state and the church.
Public funded religious schools, religious children aid societies, hospitals, retirement homes et al.
Martin is just showing his ignorance and intolerance.
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Bobo1; all good examples of religious organizations funding, and operating services. I don’t however see the connection with the topic of Gov’t putting up the capital and then turning over the project to a private religious organization.
OhmyGawd…I’m actually in agreement with the Dr…again. One of us has been into the catnip…again.